D&D General Less is More: Why You Can't Get What You Want in D&D

[Minigiant]

I am only briefly re-entering to make a small point.

One of the issues that I address, in passing, in the very verbose essay that kicked this off is that we should be careful when it comes to thinking that our own personal preferences are the same as "the community" or even large groups of it.

In addition, we should probably avoid trying to cast aspersions on designers by assuming that we can read their minds.

I wrote my comment specifically not to belittle or discount the ability of the designers.

My core point was that 5e was designed before 50%of the current 5e audience got into D&D.

So unless they are mind readers or did extensive play testing with teens and young adults, there is no way they designed 5e for them.

They may love the game. But it is not designed for them.

So the designers Less cannot match the Less of a huge chunk of the community.

And therefore those fans ask for More

 

[FrogReaver]

I wrote my comment specifically not to belittle or discount the ability of the designers.

My core point was that 5e was designed before 50%of the current 5e audience got into D&D.

So unless they are mind readers or did extensive play testing with teens and young adults, there is no way they designed 5e for them.

They may love the game. But it is not designed for them.

So the designers Less cannot match the Less of a huge chunk of the community.

And therefore those fans ask for More

A few small assumptions allows for it without mind reading or more extensive playtesting than they already do.

That the tastes of generally younger fans are mostly the same as the older - there’s probably even survey data to back that up.

 

[Minigiant]

A few small assumptions allows for it without mind reading or more extensive playtesting than they already do.

That the tastes of generally younger fans are mostly the same as the older - there’s probably even survey data to back that up.

You know what they say about you assume.

The design of 2014 and 2024 is very different. So in some part their data was wrong or incomplete.

 

[Hexmage-EN]

My read is that 5E gives a decent amount of material for DMs and a frustratingly small amount to players, possibly because it's mostly DMs who buy the books, not players.

As for player-facing design space, I think Baldur's Gate 3 demonstrated that creating more magic items was Larian's answer to the lack of choice in 5E. I personally have taken their lead and have begun homebrewing a lot of magic items to give out to my players to better give them a unique experience, but 1) it's a lot of extra (though mostly enjoyable) work, and 2) when I do get to play I don't get to benefit from the things I homebrewed.

 

[overgeeked]

My read is that 5E gives a decent amount of material for DMs and a frustratingly small amount to players, possibly because it's mostly DMs who buy the books, not players.

Huh. That's the literal opposite of my experience with playing and running 5E for the last decade. Player options are overflowing while there's not much more than "well...good luck" for referees. What is provided for referees, things like challenge rating and monster creation, for example, are utterly broken. Leaving referees to make it themselves.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

I wrote my comment specifically not to belittle or discount the ability of the designers.

My core point was that 5e was designed before 50%of the current 5e audience got into D&D.

So unless they are mind readers or did extensive play testing with teens and young adults, there is no way they designed 5e for them.

They may love the game. But it is not designed for them.

So the designers Less cannot match the Less of a huge chunk of the community.

And therefore those fans ask for More

Or those 50% were attracted to d&d because of its current design. No need for mind reading.

And congratualtion for your sources that feed you exact percentages of the playerbase.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

My read is that 5E gives a decent amount of material for DMs and a frustratingly small amount to players, possibly because it's mostly DMs who buy the books, not players.

I have more material for players than I could ever use.

As for player-facing design space, I think Baldur's Gate 3 demonstrated that creating more magic items was Larian's answer to the lack of choice in 5E.

Giving boat loads of magic items also was the solution in BG1 and 2. And guess what, diablo also goes the same way. A computer game is totally different than an RPG.
And I hate how BG 1 and 2 changed the expectation of hownmany magic items a player should easily get. Hello Christmas tree.

I personally have taken their lead and have begun homebrewing a lot of magic items to give out to my players to better give them a unique experience, but 1) it's a lot of extra (though mostly enjoyable) work, and 2) when I do get to play I don't get to benefit from the things I homebrewed.

I have noticed, that the base game has enough magic items to share with the players that can totally alter playstyle already. You could reduce work and give them a few of them. Except when you give them magic items like candy so getting normal game breaking items is not good enough.

 

[Minigiant]

Or those 50% were attracted to d&d because of its current design. No need for mind reading.

And congratualtion for your sources that feed you exact percentages of the playerbase.

The source is WOTC's demographics surveys

• According to Wizards’ surveys, the player population recently crossed a point where the majority of current D&D plans are those who started playing the game with the fifth edition. Previously, the most popular version of D&D was still the second edition, published in 1989. (“We actually built fifth edition as a follow-up to second edition,” Crawford said at the panel.)
• The player population for D&D is cross-generational, with the bulk of respondents (48%) identifying as millennials, vs. 19% from Generation X and 33% from Generation Z (born between 1997 and 2012).

Source from article

 

[TiQuinn]

Huh. That's the literal opposite of my experience with playing and running 5E for the last decade. Player options are overflowing while there's not much more than "well...good luck" for referees. What is provided for referees, things like challenge rating and monster creation, for example, are utterly broken. Leaving referees to make it themselves.

Yeah, I wish that DMs had better material offered to them on improving their games from WotC but that’s not really been the case, except for monster books. Unfortunately, their monster books lag behind 3PP in terms of quality.

 

[Hexmage-EN]

Huh. That's the literal opposite of my experience with playing and running 5E for the last decade. Player options are overflowing while there's not much more than "well...good luck" for referees. What is provided for referees, things like challenge rating and monster creation, for example, are utterly broken. Leaving referees to make it themselves.

Don't get me wrong, there are definitely aspects of 5E where the DM is expected to do a lot of the heavy lifting. The designers have at least been pretty generous with monsters, for example, and for the most part over time the monster abilities have gotten more interesting.

In contrast, being a player can feel limited for the non-caster classes unless I play a Battle Master Fighter. I wish there were more decision points in building a character, like how warlocks get Invocations to add another level of customization.

Giving boat loads of magic items also was the solution in BG1 and 2. And guess what, diablo also goes the same way. A computer game is totally different than an RPG.
And I hate how BG 1 and 2 changed the expectation of hownmany magic items a player should easily get. Hello Christmas tree.

I tend to be a bit more generous with magic items because I enjoy giving the players more options outside of what their class provides, especially for classes and subclasses that have fewer baked-in options.

One of the favorites from my previous campaign was the Stonewall Shield, which basically let the shield's wielder plant it and create a 15 foot long Wall of Stone effect once per day. The party cleric once used it to seal off a tunnel so that the party could heal while a powerful monster hammered at it from the other side, and on another occasion the cleric used it to defend a bystander from area of effect enemy abilities during a fight.

In my current campaign I'm about to give a character who is the captain of a ship a magic item that basically gives the wearer the Knight of the Rose and Knight of the Crown Rally abilities from the Dragonlance campaign to represent her ability to command.