D&D (2024) Greyhawk Confirmed. Tell Me Why.

[Micah Sweet]

Here's where I seriously disagree.

Urik von Kharkov, as had been written, was an animal who had been changed into a human--but not just any human but specifically a Black man--and he was one of a very tiny number of POCs in the setting at the time, and the only one in the Core. And his shtick is that because of his animalistic nature, he rapes and abuses his wives until they either die from their injuries or commit suicide out of despair. While I'm sure that whoever created him specifically didn't intend for anything other than a "one's true nature always comes through" type of story, what they got was pretty much the embodiment of some very racist ideas about Black men and violence that are still believed by far too many people.

WotC obviously couldn't include this as-is. They could whitewash von Kharkov so he's no longer a POC, but that wouldn't be any better (and in a way would be worse, because there aren't many of the darklords they could make not-white in exchange--and anyway, this would also anger the purists). They could tone it down or change it so that he's actually not a horrible husband but his wives are cursed to die anyway, which changes the racism to sexism by turning the fridging the wives. They could just not include the domain but make a new domain that's also cat-themed, and have everyone complain that they should have just included Valachan--and that would leave Valachan open to people who want to write 3pp for the DM's Guild, which doesn't solve the problem at all.

So they did the only thing they could do: rewrite the domain from the ground up. Here's 5e's Valachan. You don't like it? Go grab one of your 2e and 3e books and use that version instead.

Actually, what they did do didn't and doesn't stop anyone on the Guild from including or referencing the original Valachan if they want to. They would have to specifically disallow it to do that.

 

[Belen]

Orcs are territorial and warlike, but a small number of them instead opt to live and work with other races instead of fighting them. They just don't need an infusion of human juice to do that.

That's fine for anyone who wants to run it that way. I prefer Orcs to be Orcs.

Honestly, I was never a fan of half-orcs either. I rarely allow the option for my campaigns.

 

[TiQuinn]

Urik von Kharkov, as had been written, was an animal who had been changed into a human--but not just any human but specifically a Black man--and he was one of a very tiny number of POCs in the setting at the time, and the only one in the Core. And his shtick is that because of his animalistic nature, he rapes and abuses his wives until they either die from their injuries or commit suicide out of despair. While I'm sure that whoever created him specifically didn't intend for anything other than a "one's true nature always comes through" type of story, what they got was pretty much the embodiment of some very racist ideas about Black men and violence that are still believed by far too many people.

2e Ravenloft had a VERY high rapey old man quotient (amongst other issues) that needed to be dialed back.

 

[Belen]

Again with the elitism. You realise it’s okay for people to like different things?

It is perfectly fine. I get the point though. I am happy to have players make choices that will fit the campaign or world that I am using; however, if someone wants to play a half-kobold, half-purple unicorn, then I wish them well and they can find a group that will make them happy.

It is not elitist. I also want to have fun as a DM and some styles just do not work well together.

 

[Belen]

I really would enjoy a gritty pseudo dark age game. I think it would be fun and I like the aesthetic.

As you point out though, many players want options. No options generally mean no players.

I feel for you! Though I will say I have found fun in adding some new things and when others do so, it often does not detract from my fun as much as I once assumed.

Half orc paladins! Heresy! Later I played one. A dwarf wizard! No way! Later I played one in 3e…

But as to special…I always play something that is special and unique. I think making up unique things is the fun of characters for most of us. I don’t want to play Bob the fighter…but I never disrupt things of f with the DM either. I hope you at least find some folks that can strike a balance and meet you in the middle!

I tend to give players options, but I always do restrictions based on campaign world. For instance, my current campaign allows the following:

Races, Classes, & Archetypes​

Classes: (PHB)
Races: PHB (Dragonborn-(Ahniss variant)-see DM), Aasimar, Ahniss (Lizardfolk), Changeling, Eladrin (Summer or Winter), Fairy, Leonin , Satyr, Minotaur, Moon Elf (High Elf variant), Wood Elf

If players cannot choose from that list, then they may need to find a different game.

 

[Warpiglet-7]

I tend to give players options, but I always do restrictions based on campaign world. For instance, my current campaign allows the following:

Races, Classes, & Archetypes​

Classes: (PHB)
Races: PHB (Dragonborn-(Ahniss variant)-see DM), Aasimar, Ahniss (Lizardfolk), Changeling, Eladrin (Summer or Winter), Fairy, Leonin , Satyr, Minotaur, Moon Elf (High Elf variant), Wood Elf

If players cannot choose from that list, then they may need to find a different game.

Fair enough. I have zero problem with that stance. I also have zero problem with folks walking if they don’t like it.

Social game and all of that.

I have—for me—found it is usually easier to explain the world and allow for exceptions. Though I know this is far from what others
Might find acceptable.

All good!

We used to play drow here and there in the late 80s and early 90s, pre drizzt even. We took pains to hide outside of town or invest well in good disguises. Bottom line in the worlds we played in drow were very rare and often feared. We included them, but kept the world.

That of course is often out of fashion now…but the group just have to have some shared goal and vision.

I tend toward dwarves and humans and know there were no dwarves in the dark ages

 

[Faolyn]

Actually, what they did do didn't and doesn't stop anyone on the Guild from including or referencing the original Valachan if they want to. They would have to specifically disallow it to do that.

But far fewer people are going to produce or buy that sort of book.

 

[MonsterEnvy]

That's fine for anyone who wants to run it that way. I prefer Orcs to be Orcs.

Honestly, I was never a fan of half-orcs either. I rarely allow the option for my campaigns.

Orcs living with others and being peaceful to them was already a Greyhawk thing.

 

[Belen]

Fair enough. I have zero problem with that stance. I also have zero problem with folks walking if they don’t like it.

Social game and all of that.

I have—for me—found it is usually easier to explain the world and allow for exceptions. Though I know this is far from what others
Might find acceptable.

All good!

We used to play drow here and there in the late 80s and early 90s, pre drizzt even. We took pains to hide outside of town or invest well in good disguises. Bottom line in the worlds we played in drow were very rare and often feared. We included them, but kept the world.

That of course is often out of fashion now…but the group just have to have some shared goal and vision.

I tend toward dwarves and humans and know there were no dwarves in the dark ages

Well, no Drow in my current world. The equivalent would be Winter Elves (ie. Eladrin, Winter).

That is fine if I am running that type of game. I have found that if I give a lot of options and the player still needs to choose something off the wall, then it is often going to be a long term issue for the game.

This is fine for the player. Our styles probably do not mesh well and they will need to find a group that is a good fit.

 

[Remathilis]

But far fewer people are going to produce or buy that sort of book.

Agreed. I personally ran into this problem trying to find anyone who opted to update Souragne from plantation to prison cf VRGR. Everything I saw repeated the same tired antebellum jealous slave owner version. I did find someone who mixed the old domain info with the new origin and ended up mixing in some Radiant Citadel stuff as well, but a lot of guild projects literally copied and pasted the Mistopedia article.