• The VOIDRUNNER'S CODEX is coming! Explore new worlds, fight oppressive empires, fend off fearsome aliens, and wield deadly psionics with this comprehensive boxed set expansion for 5E and A5E!

D&D (2024) Greyhawk Confirmed. Tell Me Why.

Yaarel

🇮🇱He-Mage
They never did a global map for Toril in 5e,
Huh, I guess you are right. There is a map of W Faerun, the Swordcoast. The artist did maps of other locations around planet Toril, so I assumed there was a world map, and these were closeups of it. But come to think of it, I havent seen an entire world map in 5e.

I doubt we will see one for Oerth. Of course, they might choose to focus on a continent other than Flannaess.
I assume there will be other locations around planet Oerth, precisely for the sake multiculturalism. A region for fantasy India, and so on. The fantasy France is actually elsewhere on the opposite end of the supercontinent from Flannaess.

The need for Not-America makes the rest of the planet necessary.

Huge continents is what happens when you let Americans design your settings! What D&D really lacks is an islands/archipelago setting.
LOL!
 

log in or register to remove this ad


Yaarel

🇮🇱He-Mage
You have to be careful when you base your settings on places in the real world that you don't base it on stereotypes. However, there already are a number of fantasy versions of real world regions in Journeys Through the Radiant Citadel. And nothing says they are not on Oerth.
Ultimately, all settings are reallife settings. A composite of various reallife experiences, and inventing a fictional culture or ethnicity inherently and necessarily borrows from reallife for the sake of meaningfulness and relatability.

We need to avoid stereotyping fictional cultures and ethnicities, in the same way we do reallife ones.

The Orc is a case in point.

Both Oerth and Forgotten Realms are fantasy versions of reallife ethnicities. It is impossible to not be.

Yeah, we need to be careful.
 

Li Shenron

Legend
Forgotten Realms has Baldur's Gate 3 and the D&D Honor Among Thieves movie in people's recent memory.

Greyhawk has what? I understand the hommage to Gygax, but from a marketing perspective I would have chosen Forgotten Realms as a sample fantasy setting, or no sample at all.
 

Forgotten Realms has Baldur's Gate 3 and the D&D Honor Among Thieves movie in people's recent memory.

Greyhawk has what? I understand the hommage to Gygax, but from a marketing perspective I would have chosen Forgotten Realms as a sample fantasy setting, or no sample at all.
Greyhawk is cleaner. If you want to teach worldbuilding you don’t want to be lumbered with the decades of complicated baggage FR has.

The FR isn’t going away. This is in addition to, not a replacement for.
 

Anon Adderlan

Adventurer
Seems like a pure nostalgia play, as most players can't tell the difference between the various high fantasy medieval settings anyway.

Also, we can toss Harry Potter directly in the trash.
Well don't look at me, I was throwing it in the trash before it was cool, for which I was called a bigot because apparently that made me racist and homophobic.

D&D is, after all, still a geek hobby. There are a lot more people willing to identify as a geek now, you can fly your geek flag a lot more openly, but it's still a geek thing. And geeks love their history.
They love the idea of history. What they really love is canon and nostalgia.

You know appeals to Gen Z? 80s stuff, so this is kind of a two for one deal.
Hate to break it to you, but they've already moved on to the '90.

The writing was never really what carried the books, it was the world building. Which, while not particularly robust, was uniquely appealing to queer and neuro-divergent kids growing up in the late 90s.
No, it was appealing to those groups for exactly the same reasons as everyone else. It's the story of an abused orphan who enters a magical world full of familiar things and paternal/maternal figures where they discover they're the chosen one. It's as derivative as it gets.

Why Greyhawk? Because it's medieval Europe, to a large extent. You know, an actual setting that resonates with a lot of players because it's based on something real.
But not necessarily something familiar.

The more you move away from familiar concepts, the harder the sell is for a setting. Doesn't mean that it can't be amazing, but for the most popular Fantasy RPG, you want a starting point that more people can understand.
Which is why it's such a dumb idea to move away from #ForgottenRealms now that the movie is out and BG3 is a breakaway hit which will be producing content both fan and official for years to come.

Or maybe that's exactly why.

The advantage that Greyhawk has is that it is less developed. You can go back to the basics of the 1983 boxed set and then let people loose to do what they will with it. (I have a sneaking suspicion is that its nations are a lot easier to explain than those of the Forgotten Realms). It has classic dungeons to point out, but otherwise gets out of the way.
There's a fine line between having enough content to inspire ideas yet leaving enough room for that to be possible, and I'm not sure #WotC can walk that line.

All fantasy ethnic groups are, ultimately, references to reallife cultures. This means, ethically, we must describe and engage these fictional(ized) cultures with the same sensitivity, compassion, and knowledgeability about the complexity and diversity of the members, as we do for reallife ethnicities.
No, fantasy ethnic groups are as often analogies and allegories to big ideas and concepts, and the idea that they must directly correlate to actual ethnic groups is easily one of the most intellectually toxic ideas contaminating this hobby.

You have to be careful when you base your settings on places in the real world that you don't base it on stereotypes. However, there already are a number of fantasy versions of real world regions in Journeys Through the Radiant Citadel.
You mean the book about an ethnostate where membership determines rulership and criminals are brainwashed into not committing crimes?

Like any other utopian idea, there's no such thing as an unproblematic representation.

The Orc is a case in point.
You mean the group based on fascists and Nazis? The group literally represented by pigs?
 

You mean the book about an ethnostate where membership determines rulership and criminals are brainwashed into not committing crimes?

Like any other utopian idea, there's no such thing as an unproblematic representation
It's problematic if it's an insensitive characterature of a real world people or culture. Since the Radiant Citadel does not resemble any real world culture it is not problematic.

It's not problematic to have a political system we may not approve of. Otherwise they would have to remove all those monarchies!
 

RedSquirrel

Explorer
... 3e had Ember the Monk and Hennet the Sorcerer and they were supposedly Humans from Oerth, even though they don't resemble Baklunish, Oeridians, Flan, Sueloise, or Rhennee\
That's likely because humans of the Flanaess are almost never of a single straight cultural background or ancestry. Just like the real world.
"... humankind, as is its wont, has industriously intermixed... to form a hybrid type which has actually become the norm."[1]
"For the most part the Suel, Flan, Oeridians, and Baklunish have mixed to form a variety of blended types."[2]
"Many folk retain distinctive racial characteristics, but most are difficult to recognize due to long centuries of mixed marriages."[3]
"Humans of different races frequently intermarry, slowly blending peoples and cultures." [4]
"Intermixing has been the norm for many centuries,[5]
 


RedSquirrel

Explorer
We also know there was some kind of legal issues around Grayhawk pertaining to the Gygax estate, but I’m not privy to the details.
There was issue over the sons using Gygax's material, an the Estate's mishandling of Gygax's material. There hasn't ever been an issue over the IP holder (WotC) using Greyhawk. Gygax's Estate never owned Greyhawk.
But, there's a whole thread about it, right here on ENWorld. Fair Warning: it's over 1,000 page
We also know that Ed Greenwood has some kind of vetting or some kind of limited say about the forgotten realms, but somebody will have to remind me of the specifics.
True. Just as Weis and Hickman were given rein on Dragonlance, Keith Baker given input for Eberron, as well as Weis and Hickman on Curse of Strahd (revised), etc. And When Gygax was still with us, he once again had a relationship with D&D (and WotC), and wrote for Dragon, especially about the early days of Greyhawk. WotC wants all those people involved.
 

Remove ads

Top